Apr 09, 2012 in thucydides account of the mytilenian debate, the citizens of athens are discussing whether they should put to death all mytilenian men and enslave all women and children. The mytilenian debate in the athenian assembly concerned reprisals against the citystate of. Read the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue on blackboard as well as the west in question 4 section 3. In thucydides account of the mytilenian debate, the citizens of athens are discussing whether they should put to death all mytilenian men and enslave all women and children. Mytilenians revolted against dalian league and thus it. Thucydidess history of the peloponnesian war breaks off before the story is over. Mytilene, a former athenian ally, had revolted against athenian oppression but lost in a. Towards the close of the same winter, salaethus, a lacedaemonian, was sent out in a galley from lacedaemon to mitylene.
Melos is an island in the aegean sea roughly 110 km east of mainland greece. What happens when a democracy tries to be an imperial power. Notice that thucydides again uses placement of accounts to comment ironically. What was the mytilenian debate, and does it have any.
Mytilene debate and the melian dialogue comparison essay sample. Thucydides on power and justice city university of new york. The melian dialogue by thucydides is a classic that describes the overpowering classical realist view on international politics. Thucydides questions and answers discover the community of teachers, mentors and students just like you that can answer any question you might have on thucydides. The melian dialogue thucydides see pages 103 and following of the athens manual here describes a conversation set during the peloponnesian war. This belief, specifically explained at sparta and melos, is the athenian thesis. Apr 22, 2010 a modern reenactment of the negotiations between the athenians and the melians as reconstructed by thucydides, the ancient greek historian of the peloponnesian war taken from the war that never. They comment on how the audience may react to speeches and what motivations the other speaker. The following debate called the mitylenian debate by thucydidestook place between cleon and diodotus and addressed key political issues raised by the peloponnesian war. There are various elements of his history which are very worthy of note.
Apr 19, 2012 there are various elements of his history which are very worthy of note. One central piece to this discourse is the melian dialogue, a debate. Mytilenian debate v melian dialogue mytilenian debate. You are already preparing for war, and it doesnt really seem to matter what we say because you are the judges. Cleon, a prominent member of athenian society, spoke to defend the previous decision against doubts and to. Although not all athenians agree with the athenian thesis as proposed at sparta and melos, it is still an important theme in the peloponnesian war. This may be contrasted with the later melian dialoguewhere athens killed all the men. A second debate, which thucydides called the mytilenian debate, took place in order to reassess the course of action that should be taken.
In 416, during the interlude in the peloponnesian war known as the peace of nicias, the athenians decided to attack melos, a colony of sparta which had. Lets not make long speeches, lets get straight to the point. History of the peloponnesian war american university of beirut. The melian dialogue presents the usual thucydidean concentration of speech and thought.
Mar 14, 20 the mytilenian debate thucydides 1972, pp. The mytilenian debate is the first to show the change in athenian discourse. Thucydides description of the peloponnesian war 1557. What were the three virtuous and three vicious corrupt forms of government according to aristotle. History of the peloponnesian war translated by rex warner with an introduction and notes by m. To the fairness of quietly instructing each other as you propose there is nothing to object. Though the melians had ancestral ties to sparta, they chose to remain neutral in the war. Thucydides on strength and justice in the melian and. Thucydides had earlier treated the same topic in the debate of war between corcyra and corinth back in book i, but it is the melian dialogue that is most famous.
The melian dialogue is almost universally read because of its treatment of realism. Ancient studies history unit 4 study guide thucydides. Ancient studies history unit 4 study guide thucydides and the peloponnesian war. Monday 1026 thucydides recreates the debate in athens in 427 bc over how to deal with rebellious former allies in. History of the peloponnesian war american university of. The mytilenians appealed to athens enemy, sparta, for help, but the spartans lacked control of.
Thucydides on strength and justice in the melian and mytilenian. Their policy became a policy of coercion limitless expansion. In the mytilenean debate, cleon sounds surprisingly like thomas schelling when he argues that the athenian. The debate did not really occurthe arguments given by each side were of thucydides own creation. In a previous debate, the athenians already decided continue reading the mytilenian debate. The history of the peloponnesian war by thucydides. The mytilenians appealed to athens enemy, sparta, for help, but the spartans lacked control of the sea and so were unable to help. In the history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides filters the historical narrative of the peloponnesian conflict through a critical perspective. After detailing the armed conflict between the athenians and the spartans and their respective allies between. I couldnt possibly add anything to spencer alexander mcdaniels answer in regards to what is the mytilenian debate, but since ive been repeatedly asked to answer ill do my best to share my thoughts on its relevance to brexit. Know the main arguments in the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue. Jun 12, 2017 thucydidess history of the peloponnesian war breaks off before the story is over.
Immediately following the melian dialogue, thucydides introduces the sicilian expedition, which he calls the greatest exercise of athenian might but which was also the greatest debacle in athenian history. Written four hundred years before the birth of christ, this detailed. Thucydides reports in his history what was said in the debate between the athenian ambassadors and the melian leaders. The melian dialogue is a conversation where athens uses rhetoric the art of persuasive speaking and argues the point of physis survival of the fittest to persuade melos into paying the tribute. The dialectical logic of thucydides melian dialogue by. It shows that the athenians, who had made one attempt on melos in 427 under nicias, still wanted to round off their aegean empire irrespective of the dorian ancestry of melos. C thucydides reports it in book three of his history of the peloponnesian war, and uses the events and.
This change is furthered with the melian dialogue where the athenians no longer. Melian dialogue in 416 bce, the athenians, deeming it expedient to conquer the island of melos though they had no quarrel with melos. It is common for him to reveal much of his own opinion through the lines of characters, especially. Given the nature of political debate, it is unlikely that the melian dialogue was as clean and backandforth a process as thucydides describes. In their speeches, cleon and diodotus each comment on the debate they are having. The powerful athenian generals and their fleet of 38 ships carrying heavy infantry and archers waited at the shores of melos ready for action as the melians deliberated. Why, according to dante alighieri, would a world government need to be a monarchy.
The siege of melos occurred in 416 bc during the peloponnesian war, fought between athens and sparta. Through his depiction of the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue, thucydides analyzes prioritization of selfinterest, and more specifically, the idea that might makes right. The structure and function of the melian dialogue 75 means,6 and this was hindered by actions like the destruction of melos. Do you agree with the analysis in the melian dialogue about the relationship between strong and weak states, and between power and morality david greer thucydides can be seen as the first great historian, and his history of the peloponnesian war is said to be the catalyst of the realist tradition. However, using this structure allows him to clearly delineate the athenian points and the corresponding counterpoints. One aspect of the melian dialogue that is mentioned relatively rarely is the fact that the exchange of views between the athenians and the representatives of the melians takes place in private at the request of the latter. The mytilenian debate also spelled mytilenean debate or mytilenaean debate in the athenian assembly concerned reprisals against the citystate of mytilene, which had attempted unsuccessfully to shake off athenian hegemony, during the peloponnesian war. Once the terms of the debate and the subject of the debate have been settled upon, after earlier agreement on what the form of the debate is going to be, we come to the melian dialogue proper. Are there compromises to be made in how a democracy treats others. M i finley a translation of thucydides history of the wars between athens and sparta with introduction, notes, bibliography, and maps. When in the mytilenian debate athens struggles over a decision to kill all the men and enslave women and children, christian reussmit argues, this represents the moral fracture of athens and as they struggle and ultimately decide not to carry out the plan it becomes clear that.
In particular, it dealt with the contradictions inherent in a democracy that also ruled an empire, and in the rise of demagogues in a democratic state. The melian dialogue specifically displays how little regard the athenian thesis shows for justice. Written four hundred years before the birth of christ, this detailed contemporary account of the struggle between athens and sparta stands an excellent chance of fulfilling the authors ambitious claim that the work was done to last forever. Pdf thucydides voice in the melian dialogue jessica garcia.
Mytilene, a former athenian ally, had revolted against athenian oppression but lost in a fight against the athenian army. Thucydides mytilenian debate cleon diodotus rhetoric. Why is this a dialogue rather than a debate as in the mytilenian debate above, book iii. In this dialogue between the athenians and the melians, the athenians have come to this island to take over the melians. An analysis of thucydides views on the melian dialogue the melian dialogue is a debate between melian and athenian representatives concerning the sovereignty of melos. Molly wancewicz rice university thucydides history of the peloponnesian war provides incisive historical analysis of the clash between the athenian and spartan alliances during the fifth century bce. This third level of discussion proceeds as a structure disputation, formal dialectics. Though the melian dialogue is an interesting and important goround between the melians and the athenians, i found the mytilenian debate to be much more engaging.
The mytilenian debate in 428, the mytilenians revolted against athens, even though they had enjoyed privileged status in the athenian empire. Thucydideshistory of the peloponnesian war provides incisive historical analysis of the 5thcentury bc clash between the athenian and spartan alliances. Going by sea to pyrrha, and from thence overland, he passed along the bed of a torrent, where the line of circumvallation was passable, and thus entering unperceived into mitylene told the magistrates that attica would certainly. C thucydides reports it in book three of his history of the peloponnesian war, and uses the events and the. For it proves misleading to say that he is arguing merely from interestand then, on a deeper level, to say that he is arguing from justice. The melian debate and the sicilian debate mark the turning point in athenian policy garst, 1989, p. Jun 28, 2015 democracy on melos june 28, 2015 by nevillemorley one aspect of the melian dialogue that is mentioned relatively rarely is the fact that the exchange of views between the athenians and the representatives of the melians takes place in private at the request of the latter. Study guide know the main arguments in the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue.
Thucydides did not witness the negotiations and in fact had been in exile at the time, so this dialogue. This has a bearing on the question of whether thucydides could have. This dialogue deliberately recalls the earlier debate, but it is less nuanced than the mytilenean arguments might is right is the brutal but unanswerable trump card of the athenian case the strong do. In 416 bc, the athenians tried to get the people of the island of melos to join their side in their war with sparta. Melian dialogue essay david browns digital portfolio. First it will be shown at the debate at spartan and the declaration of war that athens did not attain its empire though military might. Friday 1023 thucydides recreates pericles speech in 429 bc after the athenian people started to turn against the war and against pericles decision to retreat behind the walls and fight at sea. Mar 12, 20 in book iii of his history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides records the the mytilenian debate, an event that occurred in 427 bc, roughly a year after the revolt against athens and its. The melian dialogue is an excerpt from thucydides history of the peloponnesian war between the powerful athenian empire and the tiny island state of melos. A modern reenactment of the negotiations between the athenians and the melians as reconstructed by thucydides, the ancient greek historian of. The athenians explain that power dynamics dominate the dialogue, whereas the melians appeal to logic, reason and morality. In history of the peloponnesian war book 5, chapters 84116, the contemporary athenian historian thucydides included a dramatization of the negotiations between the athenian emissaries and the rulers of melos.
The debate consisted of varying opinions, the first of which was presented by cleon of athens. This concentration contrasts with the herodotean and the earlier platonic dialogues, in both of which even discussions of a deep philosophic meaning stay closer to the easy colloquialism of everyday language. Notice that thucydides again uses placement of accounts to. There is, however, much more to his speech than meets the eye. In book iii of his history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides records the the mytilenian debate, an event that occurred in 427 bc, roughly a. In book iii of his history of the peloponnesian war, thucydides records the the mytilenian debate, an event that occurred in 427 bc, roughly a year after the revolt against athens and its. This will now be illustrated through the same extracts use in the preceding chapter, with the addition of the melian dialogue, but focusing specifically on the athenian discourse. The structure and function of the melian dialogue the journal of. In this video, we will explore the encounter between the political realism of athens and the political idealism of melos through the melian dialogue found in thucydides historical account of the. Going by sea to pyrrha, and from thence overland, he passed along the bed of a torrent, where the line of circumvallation was passable, and thus entering unperceived into.
Not only is the form of the debate vigorous i couldnt help but think that the audience was saying the ancient greek equivalent of, snap, yo. Sample solution the post the mytilenian debate and the melian dialogue appeared. Cleon v diodotus, about some members of the city of mytilene revolting, debate whether to put all males to death and enslave female, height of difference bt sparta and athens b3hinge of pelp. Pdf thucydides voice in the melian dialogue jessica. Explain the stoic conception of concentric circles of obligation. Essay on an analysis of thucydides views on the melian dialogue. Final study guide study guide inr 4103 final exam 1 know.
Thucydides debate is framed in absolute terms, as if there were no read more. Thucydides, history of the peloponnesian war my work is not a piece of writing designed to meet the taste of an immediate public, but was done to last forever. In fact no passage in thucydides, including the melian dialogue, raises starker questions about the status of political justice. The mytilenian debate took place in athens during the peloponnesian war in 427 bc and echoed the rising political and moral confusion that overtook athens after mytilene, a city within greece and an ally of athens, had rebelled against them. Thucydides clearly suggests through the dialogue that the brutality imperialist policy pursued by athens carries the seeds of its own destruction. Immediately download the melian dialogue summary, chapterbychapter analysis, book notes, essays, quotes, character descriptions, lesson plans, and more everything you need for studying or teaching melian dialogue. How can people in the melians position bargain well. Introduction to ancient greece final flashcards quizlet. Analysis of the mytilenian debate english literature essay. In the end melos doesnt agree to pay the tribute and to be an ally with athens so athens takes over melos, kills all the men, and sells all the.
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